Transcript
Julie: Today, my extraordinarily special guest is someone I’ve really admired for years, loved as a person and as a writer. I’m so happy she’s here. I’m so happy she lives in Salt Lake, and so happy she does the work she does. Melissa Leilani Larson. This series is focused on how playwrights do what they do. And you are one of the most prolific of all the writers I’ve ever even heard of. A remarkable number of plays, 22 plays, 19 of them have been produced, some of them many times, two published, and two anthologized. This is also a fairly young woman. We actually deign to talk to younger people sometimes if they meet the qualifications of having been writers all of their lives. Would you take us through an ordinary day when you’re at work, when you’re writing plays? We’ll get to your other work later. What is a day like for you? What do you do? A writing day?
Melissa: Sure. A writing day is, I try to do it every day. I do honestly think about writing as a muscle and you need to exercise it regularly. And so, I try to do it every day. It depends on how busy things are, that whole having to make the rent and all of that. But usually, I try to spend at least a couple of hours every day. And if I can really get going, it can be more than that. If I find, as you’re saying, “the muse calls,” I think it’s really important to write every day. I think it’s important to make it a regular habit and to not talk about it without doing it. So, I try to write every day. I’ve tried sometimes to write at a regular time. The thing I’ve tried to do in the last couple of years is get up early in the morning, 5.30 or 6, and do a couple of hours before I go to work. If I don’t have time, if that doesn’t work out, then I will find that time in the evening, a couple of hours is what I try to do. And try to get at least a few pages so that I can throw them out the next day.
Julie: Self-effacing occurs to me.
Melissa: Yes.
Julie: That is a laudable schedule. We might as well get to this part right now too, because you have in your career as a playwright also had jobs which required you to write up to eight hours a day. How does that work? How could you possibly spend that much time writing?
Melissa: It’s necessary, so you find a way to do it. All the time we dream about just writing, and that that’s the job, and you’re going to just do it every day. Get up in the morning and write and think about ideas and write them down. But it really is about a love for the art and rent has to be made. Groceries have to be paid for and how do you do that? Not as a playwright. At least not at the level at which I find myself. So, I have to make time to do other work. It does get tiring. It’s really hard to look at a computer all day and come home and say, I need to do a new draft of this and look at the computer some more. It’s really important for me to go on walks. It’s really important to take breaks. Remember to do the dishes, other things like that. I have to find space and I have actually tried really hard in the last little while to be more regimented about my day so that I can take the time I need to because it does affect the work too. If I’m too tired, I can’t write anything worthwhile at either job.
Julie: Yes. Thank you. Tell me what percentage of your work seems disciplined, and what is, say, inspired?
Melissa: Oh, we have to do math? We shouldn’t do any math. I’m not going to do any percentages. As I’ve gotten older, I have to plan better. I have to use my time more wisely. This is when this is due because otherwise it’s not going to get done. And I still think there is a lot of inspiration that happens. I think the inspiration happens when I’m in the moment, when I’m working a lot, like trying to figure out what a character wants. That leads the exercise of thinking about it leads to other things. And I do find that there are things that happen in that last moment before a deadline. I’m not at a place where I can rely on that anymore. I used to rely on it in grad school. I would rely on it all the time. It’s like, oh, this is due now. I better write it now. And I would write a first draft. I have several plays where the first draft came out in the course of a weekend.
Julie: Uh-huh.
Melissa: And I can’t really do that anymore. It’s not a feasible option.
Julie: Thank you. That’s a lovely answer. Thank you. Tell me, who are the people that inspired you to become a writer?
Melissa: Oh, so many. It’s like when someone asks me, what are your top 10 favorite movies? The list changes. When I was in the third grade is when I decided I was going to write books. And I was reading a lot of Beverly Cleary. I think that she’s really great because the stories are very simple. And we’ll think they’re for children. But there’s so much going on in the mind of a child and how a child reacts to things. And she really captures how real that is. And she makes it so relatable. And there’s nothing really super frilly or unnecessary. And those stories hit me at that age and made me want to write like that. And I still think about those stories. And I still remember those characters and what they wanted and how they were upset about things that would be upsetting to me as a child. And those books were monumental in my mind and still, I think, have a huge influence on children today. And the fact that I can think 30, 40 years later about how much those books had an impact on me as a child. When I was a teen, I was reading a lot of fantasy. Robin McKinley is the author who I wanted to be. She created these huge worlds, wonderful world builder, languages. She was creating languages and mythos, just really wonderful characters. And those stories would unfurl really slowly and were beautiful. I became a Jane Austen person later. And Jane Austen is what I’m kind of known now for adapting. Again, it’s kind of the same thing that all of these stories, I find them to be very relatable. They’re built around women who are very interesting, who have very relatable, important needs that other folks will see as unimportant. What’s so great about Cleary is she’s writing about kids and kids struggle to be taken seriously. And I think that happens with women in the Regency. I think that’s happening in fantasy all the time. And I became a playwright much later. I know a lot of folks have been theater people all of their lives. I was doing a workshop recently and I was so impressed. There were actual kids doing a reading, 13-year-olds who were asking questions about their character. And it’s like, well, I don’t have anything to do in the scene and how do I get what I want? And I was so impressed that they were doing theater at such a young age. And I didn’t do that. I was always knew I was going to be a writer, but I thought I was going to be a novelist. Plays that have affected me, that’s come into my life a lot later. But I read and really enjoyed Lillian Hellman, controversial, but I think her work as an American realist should be in the conversation when we talk about Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller. And Lorraine Hansberry should be in that conversation too. I think A Raisin in the Sun is one of those incredibly powerful family dramas that just kind of stays with you.
Julie: There’s something so important about it. It remains one of my top favorites.
Melissa: Oh yeah. It’s just playwright.
Julie: Just wonderful.
Melissa: And it’s great stuff for actors to do.
Julie: Um-hm.
Melissa: And it’s great stuff for students to read, understand how a good play works.
Julie: Yeah.
Melissa: Because it’s so small and contained. I love Sarah Ruhl. And I can’t imagine how to do what she does. But she’s a fabulous poet at the same time that she’s a fabulous playwright. And I’m also a huge fan of a British playwright. Her name is Helen Edmondson, who when I was first starting out in the theater in my early 20s, I saw a play of hers in London that blew my mind in all the ways. A play can do that? It’s like, oh, we’re underwater. And I had no idea how. Oh, and I was seeing and feeling things that I didn’t think you could do. It’s like, you can only imagine you’re underwater in a movie when you see that you’re underwater. But we were still getting that sensibility and getting it in a really small space. And that was a beautiful thing. It changed my life about everything.
Julie: You’re describing theatricality.
Melissa: Yes.
Julie: Do you struggle with putting something on the stage besides realism? Is that a struggle for you? I know you’ve done a lot of adaptations of Jane Austen and others you’ve done. But is there still a theatrical urge in you to violate the fourth wall, violate realism, violate a set you might have and what characters can do?
Melissa: Yes. But I do worry. At the same time that I’ve always known I’d be a writer, I get really self-conscious about the quality of the work when I do it. And I think sometimes when someone does those things so well, but I’ll tell you straight up that I don’t always understand what’s happening. And I think that’s actually part of the joy of it. It’s like you are kind of guessing a little bit. But then also there’s something in it that’s very human and innately understood, even if it’s understood in your gut, if not in your head.
Julie: Great.
Melissa: But I think sometimes I talk myself out of believing that I am capable of that, because there are things that I want to play to do and I don’t always trust myself to do those things that are a little more “out there.” Because I worry about criticism sometimes. I worry about getting butts in seats. All these things are very natural things to worry about.
Julie: Yeah.
Melissa: And when I know that there are folks who do really well with those kinds of things, yourself included, it’s not about always understanding literally what’s happening. It’s about the emotion on stage. And that’s the most important thing.
Julie: Very well answered. Thank you. Is the act of writing a pleasure to you or is it an obligation, or a duty, or any number of other things?
Melissa: Yes and yes.
Julie: (laughs)
Melissa: I do really enjoy writing. I think there is something really really satisfying about it. I enjoy writing by hand. I enjoy writing longhand. Sometimes, I’ll write the first draft of scenes by hand because it forces me to slow down and think about things. I do really enjoy typing a scene and editing a little bit as I go. Sometimes, it feels like obligation, I think, in those days leading up to that deadline. As much as I love writing, when something is due I’d rather do anything else. Like when a play is due, my house is the cleanest it will ever be. So, it’s a little bit of both. And sometimes the struggle I have with procrastination is to actually sit down and do it. And once I get past that place and I’m working, I really really enjoy it. But getting me in the chair and working on the stuff is sometimes the hardest battle. And I don’t know why that is.
Julie: Have you ever had the feeling that a play or a scene or a character or something, they wrote themselves? Writers often say that. Have you ever had that experience? Do you know what I’m saying there?
Melissa: What I feel like is that I get a sense of them being in the room with me and they kind of are tapping me on the shoulder and saying, not like that, like this. It’s more that they kind of become a force as opposed to them taking over. But they’re very, very present. And sometimes they get mad at me for making bad choices and I figure it out later. Like, okay, this was the wrong thing to do. So, I have a play that’s about polygamy. And so, the two main characters in it are the first wife and the second wife. And as a single woman and as a member of the LDS church, I thought I was coming at that play from the single perspective. It was the second wife. And as I was writing the first wife, who’s been in this marriage for 12 years at the start of the play, the character was like, no, it’s my play. And so, I do think she took over. This is what I think I’m writing. I’m writing what I think my experience is. And then it became the first wife’s story that was the more compelling story.
And that’s what ends up being the play that is “pilot program.”
Julie: I’m sure the windshield wiper of one’s mind is constantly working. And you’re looking at the world, your own experiences, people you know, things that are going on. What does it take for an idea to grab you that makes that the subject of your play instead of the other thing you thought of yesterday or last month?
Melissa: That’s a great question. See the funny thing is I think stories attract me. And it could be an idea. It could be a line. It could be a character. And then it’ll percolate for a while. And then the play may come quite a ways down the road from when I first had the idea. And I think that’s also been part of me maturing as a writer because I think when I first started out, I would just write it down right away. And this is the thing. This is the play. Look, I wrote a play. But also, now I spend more time figuring out the angle, the story. It’s like, how do I want to tell the story? If I’m doing an adaptation, how do I want to adapt the story in a way that’s different because it’s been adapted so many times before? Why tell the story again? Why tell the story again now? I usually try to tell the simplest way to describe the kind of stories I like to tell are untold or forgotten histories of women in the sense of actual history and in the sense of fictitious people. But it’s the sense of like filling in a history that we’re not familiar with and probably should be.
Julie: Thank you. You’re a member of the LDS Church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you live here. You choose to live here. How important is it for you to be in the place where the history of these people matters to you? Could you do your life anywhere else?
Melissa: I have in the past and I contemplate it every now and then, moving away, starting somewhere fresh. As a writer, I do feel like it’s such an interesting place today. I’ve written plays about LDS characters, and I think it’s important to tell those stories. To question things is a very important part of what faith is. Doubt is a natural part of faith that those things go together. It’s a vibrant, interesting place to be. I think the history is fascinating, and I think that’s really important.
Julie: Thank you. If we don’t write where we are, what are we doing? This leads to a question that maybe you’ve answered, but we’ll see. We’re both here in Salt Lake City. Would you care to just speak about the art scene here, the theater scene here, how it works for you, how you feel about it compared to other cities?
Melissa: It’s kind of amazing to see how vibrant and exciting the art scene is here, because I think comparable with other cities of similar size, we really just have a lot going on. Folks here really love musicals. They love the musical theater. Very, very popular. It’s a lot of work to put on a musical. It’s a lot of work to write a musical. It makes me just really tired. I’ve tried it a couple times, and it’s exhausting, but folks love it, and they’re passionate about it, and they show up. There are some really wonderfully talented actors here. The dance scene is amazing. The music. The symphony. I don’t think people expect that. I think they come expecting it to be a literal and a figurative desert. And there’s a lot of different levels. Depending on the kind of show you want to see, there are a lot of places to go to fill your cup.
Julie: I defy you to take a look at Denver, Seattle, LA, any city, and take a look at their playwrights. Take a look at what they’re doing. How many new plays are they doing? And Salt Lake will look better. It really will. And thank you. Thank you for being here. You need to be. We want you. You mentioned a musical. Are you serious about that? Are you doing a musical?
Melissa: I’ve worked on a couple. I’m working on one now, and yeah, if it goes the way we need it to go, it’ll be incredible. But right now, it’s just really hard. It’s very difficult. When you’re writing a play, a big piece of it is me writing, and me being a really bad actor in my office at two o’clock in the morning.
Julie: (Chuckles)
Melissa: I’m just used to doing that by myself. What’s really hard is getting used to collaborating from the ground up with someone who comes from a completely different field, and trying to understand how the music works, and lining that up with how the script works, and finding the medium, the balance where those two come together and work together. And you may think you have it one day, and then you hear it the next day, and you’re like, oh no, maybe not, maybe not. Because I’m used to being the one who says, these are all of the choices that we’re making. I’m making all of the creative choices, and not all of that is up to me. It’s a different kind of hard.
Julie: A different kind of hard. I like that. If you were talking to yourself as a younger writer, what would you tell yourself?
Melissa: I would say there’s no shame in getting a day job. Being an artist is about striking a balance. And you have to find both the time to work, and you have to support yourself. That when I would have to get a day job for health insurance, and to make the rent, I thought if I wasn’t knocking it out of the park, and being a playwright full-time, and this is the only thing that I’m doing, that I’m a failure. I mean, we just always assume that if you just out of the gate aren’t writing plays that are going straight to the Guthrie, straight to the Goodman, on stage at Wooly Mammoth, all over the country, that you can actually make a living doing that. If you’re not doing that right out of the gate, you’re a failure. It’s a very unhealthy way to think about it. And I had to grow up myself as a writer and be like, it’s okay. I have a job. I’m paying for my own rent. I have my own house. And that’s okay. That is what being an artist is, is realizing that these are the things I have to do in order to make the art. Because we unfortunately don’t live in the Renaissance. I can’t call up the Medici’s and say, hey, can you pay my rent for the next three years, and I’ll write whatever you want. But I can write whatever I want, because I’m paying the rent myself.
Julie: Very well stated. Thank you. What a credo for young writers everywhere. We have to support our habit. And it’s not easy. That’s a great idea that we talk about that more. I think that’s inspired and inspiring. Thank you so much. What a wonderful experience to talk to you. You validate everything I’ve ever thought about you. This is just amazing. Thank you. Melissa Leilani Larson.
Melissa: Thanks so much for having me, Julie. It’s been great.
Julie: Thank you.